Thai Traditional Artist

Recommend Artists/Studios, ask for help finding the perfect artist for your tattoo.

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Sorn
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Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:01 am

mmm
Last edited by Sorn on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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buttwheat
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Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:30 am

Sorn why do you have the American flag upside down?

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BadTaste
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Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:19 pm

Whats the point in wearing gloves if he cuts the fingers off? I'm not even gonna go into the rest of whats wrong there. It's amazing what people get away with if they say they're "traditional"
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trevcam11
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Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:32 pm

buttwheat wrote:Sorn why do you have the American flag upside down?
If I remember correctly from "The Castle" with Robert Redford (great movie), the upside down flag represents distress or a SOS basically. Since that doesn't seem to apply here, I am going to assume it is a disrespect to America.

Edit: From Wikipedia : "Flying an American flag upside down is not necessarily meant as political protest. The practice has its origin in a military distress signal; displaying a flag in this manner is "a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property";[26] it has been used by extension to make a statement about distress in civic, political, or other areas."
Sorn
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Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:48 am

BadTaste wrote:Whats the point in wearing gloves if he cuts the fingers off? I'm not even gonna go into the rest of whats wrong there. It's amazing what people get away with if they say they're "traditional"


Well he cuts the ends off the gloves on the first two fingers so his stick can slide through his fingers smoothly. I have seen him do many many tattoos, I have never seen an infection, scar or raising of the skin. I've never ever seen blood and he did my whole back this way. I swum, rode my motorbike 5 minutes after he finished. What do you think he is, a leper or something??

So tell us whats wrong? I see many of his customers who are trying to get a lousy job fixed up they paid a fortune for in the west. I spoke to a guy who has been tattooing by machine for 25 years in Thailand. He knows Jimmy Wong and all the legends of Asian tattooing. He told me Sorn is only the second person he has seen who can tattoo at such a high standard by stick.

Please tell us what is wrong oh great one.


Wait a minute! I just looked at your profile, you have been doing tattoos for 2 years!! You are a 24 year old Kiwi? Sorry but how much experience have you got in this style of tattooing? Have you even seen it done. The Maoris have done tattooing for 100's of years and I bet they never wore gloves..........

I have seen this done for over 25 years in Thailand, never ever heard or seen any problems.
Sorn
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Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:11 pm

buttwheat wrote:Sorn why do you have the American flag upside down?

Well I doubt Sorn would know which way is up or down. Here it was probably being used to block the late afternoon sun. He usually has it on the roof.
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trevcam11
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Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:17 pm

Sorn wrote:
Well I doubt Sorn would know which way is up or down. Here it was probably being used to block the late afternoon sun. He usually has it on the roof.
I highly doubt he doesn't know what an American Flag looks like in the right position. Not to be egocentric but it's kind of a known symbol.
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Live4him
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Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:58 pm

Sorn wrote:The Maoris have done tattooing for 100's of years and I bet they never wore gloves..........
That doesn't mean it's right.

This guy has no barriers, and should not be tattooing people while they lay in their own beds, let alone in a place where tattooing could be interrupted by rain.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would not talk to Badtaste like that either. She is an amazing artist and I would rather go to her anyday over this guy.
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BadTaste
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:24 am

Ever heard of cross contamination? Blood born pathogens? I'm not Implying that he could be giving his customers something by not wearing gloves (though he very well could be, hand washing only does so much) But that he's putting himself at a huge risk, what if the guy he's working on has Hep and doesn't know it?! I have huge respect for Horiyoshi III who also tattoo's with a "stick" as you put it, he doesn't feel the need to cut his gloves. How does he sterilize? the handles of his instruments are wooden, wood is porous, hard if not impossible to properly clean and absorbs everything that touches it. It cannot be autoclaved. Even if he uses new needles for every client the handle can never be properly cleaned, thus cross contamination occurs. He's using childrens paint pallets for ink caps, how were they cleaned? are they disposable? he thinks "MOMS" is good, it's absolute rubbish. He doesn't use ANY barriers! thats cross contamination again, how can he possibly keep his environment clean when nothings covered? he's using cushions and his bed as his work surface! nothing soaks up blood better than cotton. He says you can swim 5 mins after a tattoo if you put vaseline on it! thats terrible advise, you shouldn't be soaking your tattoo till its well healed, not to mention the fact that vaseline helps the burning process in the sun, no wonder all his healed work looks so faded.

I'll admit freely that as far as hand poked work goes his is pretty damn clean, especially his lines, but it's flash and stuff printed off the net, things like butterfly tramp stamps and jesus portraits will always look better done with machine, i can understand getting thai writing/prayers and more traditional artwork done this way but not new school american designs.

And yes i'm from New Zealand, thats the very reason I made the earlier comment about talking up "traditional" work in my first post. We have a huge problem with Hep C here mainly among the pacific island communities because of their "traditional tattooing" they get done in unsafe environments in their homes, with no understanding of the danger.

I may have only been tattooing for 2.5 years but I've been around the industry alot longer than that, traveled and worked in a bunch of different shops with alot of different techniques and styles and learned as much as I could along the way. I have alot to learn, and a long way to go and i can appreciate that. but one thing i do know for sure is that I'd never feel safe getting a tattoo from your friend Sorn.
Last edited by BadTaste on Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Antler
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:56 am

Sorry for the rushed reply, but wanted to get in here while it's hot.
Sorn wrote: Wait a minute! I just looked at your profile, you have been doing tattoos for 2 years!! You are a 24 year old Kiwi? Sorry but how much experience have you got in this style of tattooing? Have you even seen it done. The Maoris have done tattooing for 100's of years and I bet they never wore gloves..........

I have seen this done for over 25 years in Thailand, never ever heard or seen any problems.
Well actually US Maori do use disposable gloves, and since they were only invented in the 1940's, I hope you'll excuse us for not using them prior.

Seriously though, back then we didn't have viruses like HIV/AIDS or Hepatitis to spread around, where-as this Sorn guy not only has to worry about spreading scum around his village, it seems he tattoos a great deal of tourists, making it all the more likely that his environment/equipment will pick up & transfer all kinds of blood-borne pathogens, even ones not considered a danger in Thailand & according to online studies I've just looked up, Hepatitis C is actually on the rise in Thailand.

The fact that he always uses fresh needles like the website states is inconsequential because of the nature of his tools, notice how close the needles are to the wooden handle? how often is blood & ink transferred back onto the handle? Compare his tools to those of the traditional japanese artist Horiyoshi the Third, with the japanese tools the handles sit at the end of a long detachable steel AUTOCLAVE-FRIENDLY tube, see where I'm going with this?

This Sorn guy is only holding himself back by using these tools, his tattoos are better than most traditional thai artists I've seen, but to be blunt thai tattooists have a reputation for being poor artists & lax in terms of cross-contamination & sterilisation. That said, he's still worse than most apprentices I've seen in more developed/clued-up areas.

There comes a time when you have to kiss goodbye to out-dated traditions, the better Maori tattooists have done so by adapting the traditional Uhi to have more in common with the japanese and samoan tools, replacing the chisel with a row of disposable needles & making it so all parts of the tool can be broken down and sterilised. Not to say that all are following suite, but it means that Hep C amongst Maori & polynesian communities (which is actually a big problem) can eventually be contained & hopefully eliminated as far as tattooing is concerned.

It may not seem like a big deal in some communities but cleaning up tattooing in traditional context not only ensures that the client and practitioner are as safe as possible but it also means that traditions like these will survive without danger to be passed on to future generations.
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super_sam
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:23 am

They also eat rotten half-hatched duck eggs in thailand... No one ever said you fuckers were bright..
Sorn
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:53 am

super_sam wrote:They also eat rotten half-hatched duck eggs in thailand... No one ever said you fuckers were bright..
That's the Philippines Einstein!
Sorn
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:27 am

Well actually US Maori do use disposable gloves, and since they were only invented in the 1940's, I hope you'll excuse us for not using them prior.

Well I'm grateful someone has come on who can discuss things without getting hysterical and ranting like a total critic. I have joined this site with the very intention of finding ways to help Sorn become more professional.

Seriously though, back then we didn't have viruses like HIV/AIDS or Hepatitis to spread around, where-as this Sorn guy not only has to worry about spreading scum around his village, it seems he tattoos a great deal of tourists, making it all the more likely that his environment/equipment will pick up & transfer all kinds of blood-borne pathogens, even ones not considered a danger in Thailand & according to online studies I've just looked up, Hepatitis C is actually on the rise in Thailand.

A lot of the paranoia I feel comes from the fact this style of tattooing is mainly practiced in Thai jails. In Thai jails drug use and the sharing of needles is the problem. Needles for tattooing are very hard to find in jail.


The fact that he always uses fresh needles like the website states is inconsequential because of the nature of his tools, notice how close the needles are to the wooden handle? how often is blood & ink transferred back onto the handle?

Well have a look, there is no blood and the pin holes close up virtually immediately as he is very slow and careful. I would agree there are some terrible Thai hand tattooists, butchers basically who don't give a shit. The fact many people are returning over and over to see Sorn is something. These people are not fools, many have a lot of tattoos, some done by some of the so called legends of tattooing.

Compare his tools to those of the traditional japanese artist Horiyoshi the Third, with the japanese tools the handles sit at the end of a long detachable steel AUTOCLAVE-FRIENDLY tube, see where I'm going with this?

Yes I am going to get Sorn to move to something besides Bamboo if I can. I've watched this Horiyoshi online, man he is savage to me, totally different to Sorn who gently taps the skin. Horiyoshi is no doubt an expert in his style but I see it as slightly different to what Sorn does. I used to do a traditional karate style and the Japanese have this real thing about pain in their psyche. The old "no pain no gain" Bushido warrior stuff. His friend who is not quite as good as Sorn uses a stainless steel stick. I'll certainly talk to him about it.

This Sorn guy is only holding himself back by using these tools, his tattoos are better than most traditional thai artists I've seen,

I took most of the photos and many are taken in very bright sunlight so that is why some look a bit faded. Many of the online photos are black backgrounded with studio lighting so I wouldn't compare my holiday photos with them LOL

but to be blunt thai tattooists have a reputation for being poor artists & lax in terms of cross-contamination & sterilisation. That said, he's still worse than most apprentices I've seen in more developed/clued-up areas.

Probably a fair call but in machine tattooing you are really opening someone up, almost like minor surgery, that just isn't happening here. Like I said, Sorn is just 29 and been doing this for 10 years. Before he met me he was doing only Thais using indian ink. I bought him some starbrite ink as it was recommended. I also got him some Kumo suri black ink from Japan. I think there is huge potential for him in this style as it is so hard to find anyone willing to do it. Thais I know who can do it say it requires extreme patience and concentration. What I love is how smooth it is on the skin. I have seen so much scarring from machine tatts. That's why I never ever got one until I was 45 when I met Sorn. I used to do Karate and have even been in jail so have seen my share of tatts. I was so impressed when watching Sorn, a number of my friends have also got him to do work on them after seeing him in action


There comes a time when you have to kiss goodbye to out-dated traditions, the better Maori tattooists have done so by adapting the traditional Uhi to have more in common with the japanese and samoan tools, replacing the chisel with a row of disposable needles & making it so all parts of the tool can be broken down and sterilised. Not to say that all are following suite, but it means that Hep C amongst Maori & polynesian communities (which is actually a big problem) can eventually be contained & hopefully eliminated as far as tattooing is concerned.

Well I have allready spoken to Sorn about caps and a stainless steel stand. It is just a matter of educating him rather than knocking him or ranting on like the chick in the previous post. He hasn't killed anyone yet and I'm pleasantly surprised just how happy his customers are. I just got an email today from a Sth African guy who had some work done. This guy is a multi millionaire but just loves getting his tatts done by the beach by Sorn.

It may not seem like a big deal in some communities but cleaning up tattooing in traditional context not only ensures that the client and practitioner are as safe as possible but it also means that traditions like these will survive without danger to be passed on to future generations.[/quote]

Great positive stuff, I checked out the girl aboves site and her work is very clean and neat no doubt. However a lot of guys I have spoken to hate this, they say it is too sterile, too neat like a plastic stick on transfer or cartoon rather than a tattoo. If Sorn was spreading disease rampantly we'd all be dead by now. Besides where is the easiest place to to get sick and catch something? Is it not the hospital that is spotless? Jails are extremely clean from my experience, yet disease often runs rampant. If Sorn was machine tattooing I'd be mortified to say the least. Basically the previous girl has leaped in to criticize and be negatiive, basically exposing her personality as a "know it all whiner" rather than offering any real advice or assistance. Thanks for some history and feedback. My profile says "tattoo enthusiast" not expert. I came here to learn and pass on what I learn to Sorn as I speak fluent Thai.

2 questions, what inks are the best?

Any idea of where to get some of the Maori tools you speak of?

If I can get Sorn something like you speak of it would be great

Thanks for your time and advice.
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kohlhaas
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:51 am

This thread is pure gold. Wow.
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HEIRLOOMJOHN
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Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:56 am

this is some heavy stuff !!
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